Weekday wines, 20th to 23rd November

Starting the new thread early this week.

I have an excuse though, it is my birthday today. Anyone who has a birthday at this time of year will understand the need for a decent bottle. I will update when I have tasted it.


Many happy returns! Have a lovely meal.


Happy birthday, @Paul1! :tada:


Paul, a very happy birthday indeed, and a rather fine wine from a very fine vintage. I wish you many more happy returns especially with that kind of wine !

I feel somewhat mealy-mouthed posting a lesser wine this Monday.


Note it is ‘Pinot Noir’ and not Spätburgunder - which is quite correct, this wine does not have the spice and depth of a Spät… nor does it have the verve and lift of a Burgundy. Tasted blind I would guess a Bourgogne Passe-Tout-Grains.

Not to damn with faint praise: thoroughly quaffable and truly appeals to my Beaujolais centric palate. Light cherry icecream nose with wild mushrooms ! , light and bright palate, sharp finish.


The Labégorce is 14.5% which is a little high for me. Seems Merlot led in the mouth. A hint of prunes (which is not my favourite) but finishes pleasingly with some cedar.


1982 Armagnac…fiery prunes, but a touch of burnt softness


Evening all,

So. What’s on the tasting block tonight.

Baron de Ley Tres Viñas Rioja Blanco Reserva 2008

As the label suggests it’s a blend of.

Viura, Malvasia, and Garnacha Blanca.

Cork needed two attempts to take it out.

Poured golden yellow. I’m rubbish at tasting notes. Off dry perhaps medium. Some (nice) oxidative notes. Some vanilla perhaps.

Lovely old wine. Disappeared very quickly.

Suspect (but don’t know) there may be one or two more still hiding…

Tesco’s in the bad old days…




Happy birthday Paul

Hope your day was a good one.

Lovely wine to celebrate the occasion…


Had a couple of quick tasters at La Carte Des Vins in Paris.

Argile Rouge by Domaine des Ardoisieres 2022. A blend of Gamay and Mondeuse from Savoie. Light and savoury - it starts with the fruit of the Gamay and then turns into something more flinty, volcanic, reminiscent of gunpowder. Very interesting.

Laurent Combier - Crozes Hermitage 2022. My first taste of the '22 vintage in Northern Rhône. Owner opened to try out ( he hadn’t tried it yet, just arrived) when I mentioned Ogier. There’s more plush fruit here blackberry and blueberries. Ripe and just short of compote. Some spices and oak. Lovely density that makes it suitable to drink young but would probably calm down next year. Low tannin, medium + acidity. Not unlike a Fleurie or Morgon but with a Syrah profile!


We had the 2021 of that Laurent Combier in a wine pairing last year, and my memory is much as you describe - lighter coloured fruit and a lot less tannin than typical Northern Rhône, and quite close to Cru Beaujolais in style. It was paired with a pork dish.


You weren’t messing with these fiddly things were you?:grinning:

I’m scratching my, evidently, uneducated head here. I thought the names were equivalent and interchangeable, but of the same grape variety. But should I be thinking there’s a style difference like syrah vs shiraz ?

As a frequent buyer of (usually entry-level it must be said) PN and Spat… I’ve not noticed any consistent difference or distinct style unique to one or the other, merely that the product comes from respective countries which use that name. My go-to is Ahr Spat but only because it tends to offer good value for the drinking quality it buys.

Hope to learn something here !!

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I (and probably of the board) have a butler’s thief.

Not needed as got the last third of the cork out with the corkscrew.

Had thought about buying a Durand. Sticker shock!

Cheers …

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I think it depends (rather like Pinot Gris/Grigio) on the style of the wine and/or the target market.

Shelter Winery in Germany produce a Pinot Noir and a Spätburgunder, the former is meant to be more like a Burgundy, I think. It’s also twice the price, so that element is about right at least.

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The French are increasingly using “Malbec” on their Cahors, sure enough, but I thought that was just marketing of the same product but with a more familiar name to entice / reassure buyers. By the same token, I’ve never seen Italian PG labelled “gris” nor French “grigio”, so my assumption from Germans using the word PN is merely to portray a more internationally recognised word for the variety therein. If Shelter offer both names, and the PN is twice the price, that goes against @lapin_rouge 's assertion that Spat “has” more spice and depth…

Confused ? you bet !!

Some years ago I was at a NZ tasting where one producer had a Pinot Gris and a Pinot Grigio. He explained it was because the two vintages had produced different styles of wine.

One of the worst wines I’ve tasted in years was a pub wine, produced in Italy, marketed as ‘Zin’.

Amusingly, I think Aldi used to stock an Italian Zinfandel. Presumably because it was more marketable than a primitivo.

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I would suggest the splitting of hairs on the point of Pinot Noir and Malbec is that they have a much more international profile (actually, much more than ‘much more’, they’re ubiquitous) whereas both Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio have international markets, and indeed generally a recognisable style associated with them.

Ask the average punter in the street what a Cot/Auxerrois or Spätburgunder is and they’ll look at you like you’ve two heads :grinning:


Spätburgunder and Pinot noir are the same variety. The term Late Burgundy is used to distinguish it from PN précoce which is Fruhburgunder.
The nuanced differences in fruit and structure are because the Germans, mostly, use different clones of PN from France.
Burgundy uses 114,115,666, 667 the German use clones developed at usually either Freibourg or Geisenheim. The reason is that Germany was too warm for Dijon clones.
That having been said some German growers do use some Dijon clones. Fürst being a main example.
Dijon clones mostly originated from cuttings in Morey st Denis, Clos de la Roche, domaine Ponsot vines.
Clones used in Oregon were mostly taken from Pommard.


That’s interesting, because I’ve only recently taken to (German) Spätburgunder at a £18 to £25 level which to my palate is distinctly different to (French) Pinot Noir. I assumed that despite being the same grape, the German winemakers have taken the wine in a different direction to bring out notes of spice.

If they are also using different clones, that would add additional layers of difference.

My original point was that the (German) Weingut Becker 2018 seemed out of character, and more French in style. So perhaps they have planted French clones?

so… @Andrew1990 do you know what clones do they use in Alsace, because again they make P.N. quite different to the Baden & Burgundy models!

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