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Sexism in the craft beer industry

Well I’ve been taken down again.
Not sure why this time. A debate should accept both sides of an arguement. My post wasn’t extremist at all. In fact I thought I demonstrated an understanding stance on what can become a contentious issue.
Silencing those that don’t fully agree with your own point of view just isn’t Democratic.

You have not been taken down. Everybody on the community has the right to raise their concern about a post and flag it. If enough flags are accumulated the post is automatically hidden until a moderator (admin not mentor) reviews it. If I have to guess, it might have been the very last half sentence that some did not like.

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I’m sorry? Advocating ogling and ‘enjoying the view’ on the beach is reasoned? As a ‘red blooded male’ myself could I please request you stop digging before you drag all us blokes into the hole? Thanks

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Gosh @crocos these are big, important questions. I share your frustration and wonder why there is not more questioning of the dominant narratives. I had not heard of Paulo Friere but I had a quick look and I can see that he promotes the idea of dialogue as the way to learn. I so agree with this. I think the more we engage with each other, listen with curiosity and not judgement, really try to understand things from multiple’ perspectives and tolerate difference without denigrating it then this would lead to real change.

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I had exactly the same frustrations as you, until I started my counselling practice a decade ago. What I quickly realised was that even as individuals really wanted to change - that’s what they came to counselling for - they could do very little about the systems and structures they were born into and, often, stuck in.

This is a simplification of something I’ve been exploring in my practice supervision for years, but the gist is that although individual change is a lofty and beautiful idea - very much in line with Western individualism doctrine - it’s only half the story. If you are stuck in a system (and the first ‘system’ we all belong to is our family) that uses certain modes of thinking, certain language, behaviours and beliefs - even if you wish to break free from that because you see through some of the bull, it’s incredibly hard to do.

This is not to say it’s impossible - more often than not people surprised me with how much they were willing to challenge the structures they were wishing to change or disengage from, but for some there were some serious sacrifices to make.

And that’s before we go on to explore the fact that many people don’t actually see the wood for the trees, and their internal evaluation and resources are so poor, that the only option is to go with the bull on offer.

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I think this directly relates to my previous point. It is difficult to engage in open dialogue when the result of change is relinquishing privileged previously enjoyed. So… when that change does occur, there are reactions which can feel counterproductive. (ref “all lives matter” to BLM)

And that just covers the natural human element of things, the emotion. Let alone the collateral damage / unintended consequences of change. Not all progress changes everything for the better.

Society and culture is messy and complex and inter-related.

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I didn’t flag it, but glad others did. It was unnecessarily provocative.

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“Sexism in the craft beer industry”… discuss. Now there’s a niche subject, and then to conflate with bikini wearing rules for ladies beach volleyball (which appals me).

I might add… that the changes I have seen on the British shop floor over the last 35 years are incredible - so things ARE heading in the right direction. My first post-uni job was in a factory in Stevenage: Racism wasn’t ‘casual’ but absolutely overt, there were strippers in the bar on Friday - AND a bar with alcohol open every lunchtime - smoking was everywhere (and this was an inflammable furniture factory!). Outright fascist attitudes were common. So we have come a long way.

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No doubt it’s not easy, and especially if the “problem” structure/s is as intimate & central as e.g. the family [which I know very well it can be]. I’m talking more really though about the less intimate media & social media images / aspirations etc that are all around us. I’m not sure it is that difficult to step away / outside of them.

That said, I’ve simply never understood following the crowd - I’m probably slightly ASD so it’s in my nature - and I’ve never found it difficult to go my own ways. Group-think of any kind, whether political / social / cultural / “ism”-based is always deeply suspicious and anathema to me.

When it comes to the effects of intimate structures / systems like the family, then it’s a different thing, I agree. Ditto with institutional structures. It can be a huge personal risk to make too much noise, and many folk don’t have any safety-net to enable them to take those risks. I’ve witnessed my dear ma come a cropper for shaking too many trees in her profession.

Strangely though, I’d say things have probably come further in institutional structures than they have in media & social media areas, which I find strange and troubling, I must say. That’s where, after all, folk do have most agency for change.

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This might interest people - is the official Olympic dress code for volleyball (I stress, NOT European regs) - and as far as I can see, the Norwegian ladies kit fits the regulations just fine. Fits the brief even :slightly_smiling_face:

I must admit - it’s strange that Olympic Ladies have the OPTION to play wearing a bikini… but blokes cannot wear trunks. Prob just as well - but it seems sexist.

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I should have been more specific, its the Beach “hand” ball team… do the same rules apply??

Indeed. There seem to be three alternative options for women to the “bikini” (not called that). They are one-piece top; no-sleeve top and shorts; and half-sleeved top and knee-length pants. They do seem to be variations on common beach attire worldwide. Quite what the technical infraction of the Norwegian team was I can’t say. Maybe they were trying to mix and match?

I suspect it was inaccurately reported, though the inner academic in me feels an essay on - oh never mind.

Back to Craft Beer…

The event in question was a European Championship organised by EHF based on rules set by IHF. Clearly rules at the Olympics are different, especially in a different sport.

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Thanks - it would appear confusion is rife (not least in my mind but others here and in the press too). I didn’t think beach handball was a thing at the Olympics. Never mind - we’ll get there in the end.

It is not, you are right.

to answer Leah’s question - apparently not. I got sidetracked by the Olympics diversion. Though having gone looking on the EHF website, it seems there is already a request by the EHF to the IHF to change the rules on attire, though apparently only the IHF can do that. As the request is being led by Norway, maybe they have got fed up waiting and decided to do something about it (?)

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It looks like it. I’ve got to be honest… the thought of those half bikini bottoms riding up and full of sand makes me wince. I really feel for those ladies and how uncomfortable it must be .

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Which is great, why the EHF felt compelled to impose a fine though is beyond comprehension.

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What a farce. Very glad to see the Norwegians doing something about it. Hopefully all this publicity will expedite a change to the rules, for this sport and any others where this situation is repeated.

Yes, I agree, change involves loss and loss causes sadness which human beings tend to act to avoid rather than to embrace. Most of us will only countenance loss if we can be assured of some form of gain further down the line and as you say there are no guarantees that change is always for the better.

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