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Lockdown 2

expect “proceedings” based on supermarkets can sell non-essentials but specialist shops cant open to sell non-essentials

small companies are some of the highest % tax payers as they don’t have legions of management and tax accountants working out how to offset a couple of hundred million from HMRC !

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Doesn’t work as I’m going from Redhill to Ludlow to pick up my mum and then from there to Inverness. Stevenage is just too far out of the way! :frowning:

Well Sturgeon hastily backed off the rather bizarre decision to allow cafes but not restaurants to open, which of course begged the question of definition. I think when the third interdict was granted against ScotGov in the Court of Session she saw the writing on the wall…will now just shut them all! :rage:…having told us we can’t even have a glass of wine with our meal even in a hotel restaurant.

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Just when you think it couldn’t bet worse, Farage is starting a new party. I think it’s called the “Tinfoil Hat Party” or “Conspiracy Party” or something… Campaigning against lockdown. Meanwhile Ian Duncan Smith, that pillar of sanity, says we are listening to Scientists too much.

I presume he wants us to listen to lobbyists/witchdoctors/people who think vaccinations give you autism.

These last few years have given a whole new meaning to the phrase ‘you couldn’t make it up’.

Maybe we need a WS Survivalist thread - advice on how to knit your own porridge, make your own cave, hunt with crossbow and also… grow your own vines?

Actually, let’s make ‘grow your own vines’ the first item to prepare for Mad Max times…

(Hopefully no apocolyptic future will be as bad as Kevin Cosner’s Waterworld…)

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Why listen to scientists or doctors who spend most of their lives studying and researching in their fields? Let’s follow the ignorants who vomit a few words together and understand nothing about the actual subject.
Waterworld was decent! I remember watching it at least a few times when I was growing up

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As opposed to business men/women, bankers, financiers I suppose…? They have always lead us onto the paths of sanity.

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I don’t think there is anyone here on TWS Community who has had to make a decision that comes anywhere near close to those being made on our behalf as a result of this pandemic. I wince at the keyboard philosophy that people offer and the advice they offer in the plain knowledge that it means diddly-squat! It seems plainly obvious that the difficult balancing act between the nation’s health and the impact of restrictions on its economy cannot be undertaken lightly. There is vested interest on both sides, medically and economically. The only thing we can do is to look after our own and not hurt others. Adding to the noise (as indeed this post does) is just more crap on the shovel.

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There’s actually a lot of keyboard philisophy out there. I recommend the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
or there’s some very good stuff on the Stoics here:

Actually, I imagine a few of the WS members are in occupations where they have to make complex decisions. Though I didn’t actually make light of the utterly complex decisions that people have had to make. I was showing my utter distrust for rogues who play to the gallery and simplify the issues…

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sit down before you read this…

I kind of agree - decisions of this nature are so rare and require those at the higher levels of society (meaning PM, High ranking military etc) to undertake them on behalf of the wider society…

But - because they are so rare, no one person has the expertise to make the decisions. It is here I have my issue, decisions are being made that go against scientific knowledge (admittedly the knowledge of this virus is still very low) so with power comes responsibility and I don’t have confidence they are being responsible.

I undertook a piece of work for a client looking at reducing road deaths - various groups were interested in various aspects of the presentation and how it would affect their ‘area of interest’ - a govt department and an insurer were very interested in the discussion on economic impact of a death…each is estimated at £2.2 million.

And when you look at purely economic outcomes you lose the empathy of the electorate as they look at number of deaths not ££. be assured…someone is running the figures on this all the time.

Exactly !

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I have to disagree with you here for the following reasons:

I don’t think there is anyone here on TWS Community who has had to make a decision that comes anywhere near close to those being made on our behalf as a result of this pandemic. I wince at the keyboard philosophy that people offer and the advice they offer in the plain knowledge that it means diddly-squat!

Just because members of the public are not responsible for decision-making does not mean that they should not think on the issues facing the nation/world and discuss them. This is an insidious form of silencing detractors of any viewpoint and in my opinion a null argument. If you disagree with the point of view being made then fine, make a valid counterpoint, but don’t tell people that who they are makes their argument or right to discuss it invalid, that’s not nice.

It seems plainly obvious that the difficult balancing act between the nation’s health and the impact of restrictions on its economy cannot be undertaken lightly. There is vested interest on both sides, medically and economically.

This incorrect assumption is why we are in such a mess. It may seem intuitive that anything you do to shut down the virus will hurt the economy, but to some this seemed bad logic to begin with, and even hawks in countries which experienced SARS now agree it to be false.

Which countries are now seeing the worst economic hurt?


Image source

Shut down the virus, keep a lid on it, then reopen the economy. Data above shows that there is no sign of a trade-off between health and economy. If all you wanted was to look after the economy you would go after the virus with single-minded determination. God knows what Boris et al. are up to.

The only thing we can do is to look after our own and not hurt others.

There is a great deal more you can do. From reading, learning and engaging with public policy and science; to buying a few extra items in your shop and donating them to a foodbank and a great deal more besides.

Adding to the noise (as indeed this post does) is just more crap on the shovel.

This thread is called lockdown 2. What did you expect?

That may all seem a bit bad tempered, but it is kindly (if also robustly) intended. I am heartened to come here and see that there are likeminded members, I wouldn’t want them to feel their contributions unwelcome.

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Agreed - I’ve been rather obsessively following the latest research on the way the virus is spread. Perhaps like HIV we start off with quite ‘magical thinking’ about spread and what is harmful, before more detailed epidemiological evidence leads us to look at particular ‘harm limitation’ strategies as we focus on harmful behaviours. We’re still at the early days on this as we’re still learning.

Edit - here’s a very interesting article using simulation of aerosol transmission in different scenarios.

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Quite the reverse. It seems (to me at least) well-reasoned, calm and positive. Thanks

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That article is excellent. It also really neatly demonstrates how detailed study can be invaluable to understanding the world around us. ‘Big data’ and analytics is all the rage but this is good old fashioned science actually helping us to understand and mitigate risk.

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This seems to indicate several things:

  • Ventilation is a lot more important than mask use (particularly since in the real world masks aren’t worn very effectively).
  • Preventing people for going outside as per the first batch of lockdowns is pretty counterproductive
  • Long meetings are a bad idea…which was true anyway!

I do read as much as I can from various angles. I am dismayed that Farage has self appointed to the ‘sceptics’ side, as that will potentially devalue some of the sensible questioning coming from there, and Farage will probably replace it with his own bar room ‘logic’.

SAGE seems to be quite an unwieldy body to deal with something like this.

Interesting at present that the Zoe group led by Spector has now publicly contradicted the notion that cases are growing exponentially.

I am also somewhat sceptical of the assumptions surrounding estimates of how many people have had it. The very recent T cell announcements suggest that there is perhaps a wider section of the community than assumed who have a degree of immunity already, and this is supported by the differing outcomes within families who have all been exposed to it.

All that said, it’s difficult not to conclude that the UK Government’s response has been confused, incompetent and illogical at times. Scot Gov gets lots of praise, but in reality it’s only a bit better. More coherently presented which helps.

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Thinking about this anthropologically, there’s a lot of thinking in these stages that is almost ‘cargo cult’ thinking. In ‘cargo cults’ you build ‘radios’ out of bamboo to talk to gods, etc.

agreed - and you see it in otherwise sane people wearing a mask but their nose poking through, rendering the mask useless - the cargo cult thinking being the simple wearing of a mask is useful rather than the effective wearing of it.

The thinking of the police stopping people driving to the Peak District - where there was zero risk of transmission outside their bubble if they were driving alone.

We are beginning to leave that phase of magical thinking. I agreee partly about mask wearing - but in terms of aerosol spread, the mask is more about protecting others from one’s possible spread, rather than protecting oneself. When considered that way, it seems that they are very effective at cutting rates of transmission.

I am sometimes one of those people…I have chronic nasal/sinus condition which is exacerbated by wearing a mask (warm moist air etc). I can wear one for a short period, but then find that my nasal passages swell and sinuses become painful. Already taking anthistamines and cortiso steroid spray for it… I therefore have to pull it down from time to time. I try to avoid going places at all where I might need to wear one, or keep away from folk when I do. Keeping it over the mouth mitigates against coughing to some degree sneezing.

If there were to be some edict about mask wearing outside at all times - which would be pretty stupid anyway - I’m afraid I would be 100% non compliant with that.

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Agreed! Science is better for sensible debate and a thorough examination of the lines of arguments, first principles, etc. However, there’s already a dangerous amount of guff being talked and certain people on the right are using conspiracy theories to provide ‘pat’ answers to very complex problems. There’s a whole bonkers conspiracy movement that’s blossomed in the US on the back of Covid and the Alt Right, and the anti-vaxxer movement. It’s scary.

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To note that TWS has just emailed to say they are closing the showroom again, but remaining open for collections, with hours extended to 9-17 on Sat, 9-19 on weekdays.

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There is always the option of wearing a screen type shield instead of a close fitting mask!