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Chateau Musar, advice


#204

I’ve always wanted an 85 but not prepared to pay the price.

A quick Google shows wildly different prices for the 77 but the wine soc price is competitive.


#205

Nah, Not even tempted.

I’m sure it’s great, but…

I had the 91 (by all accounts a superb vintage) a couple of years ago, and really felt it was a bit past it, at least to my tastes (though it was my sole bottle and I’d never tried it before). It was perfumed and ethereal n’ all dat, but just a bit too light. But maybe that’s cos I’m a pleb at heart :grin:

I’m looking to drink my remaining 99s soon.


#206

isn’t that the whole thing…it shouldn’t matter who the producer is, what the vintage - it’s if it is to your taste.

I’ve actually started drinking wines a bit younger than I did (still about 10 years for a recent box) as I actually like the taste of fruit over the taste of leather and leaves !


#207

but you can’t ignore scarcity (and therefore a direct link to sob value) … at this age it is the main driver in price

I would imagine the graph of price vs scarcity would see a fairly step attack once you hit about 25 years…but plateau off again once the risk of “a bad bottle” cuts in


#208

I would think that the risk of a bad bottle, even for Musar, is not negligible at over 40 years.

However, I take your point re the scarcity premium, and perhaps my brief analysis could be extended to guesstimate what that is…

As a first stab, if you use a discount rate of 7%, you can then say that the 1999 priced at around £30 a bottle now, had a 1999 ‘cost’ of about £8 (all this including duty and VAT). Running that same discount rate back to 1977, and assuming that the ‘cost’ remained constant, then the expected current value is about £140, so a scarcity premium of over £100.

To get them to equalise, i.e. no scarcity premium, you have to use a discount rate of over 10%…

A fair few assumptions in there, but you get the drift…would need to know what the original prices were, and since Musar often don’t release for years after the vintage it’s quite difficult.


#209

@MarkC of course in its earlier days Musar was an emerging ‘find’ and didn’t carry any additional status as it does today. I would imagine that is incalculable.


#210

Interesting model, the 1979 was offered for £149 by TWS in 2016…:wink:


#211

God that would do the job wouldn’t it. TWS description sounds amazing. However that price…


#212

I wonder if the price is also, from a retail point of view, factoring in the risk that they’re taking by offering such an old wine - the money-back promise for faulty bottles will probably set them back a few bob when it comes to a doddery old Musar.


#213

seems a fairly good first stab at a "model’

you would have to find the price of the first time it came to market

well an algorithm to work such out might be my festive period project - I always try to give my brain something to do (apart from playing boardgames!) over the break


#214

I wonder if these are stock from the wine society’s cellars held back, or back vintages direct from Musar? Not sure how it works from a supplier point of view if the latter and it’s a bad bottle?

There are no bad bottles of Musar anyway, just lots of variation!


#215

I think this overstates my Heath Robinson like creation, which was more or less put together while I was writing it! However, it might be instructive to do similar with a wine where the release price at date of vintage (en primeur) was known.


#216

stunning but needs 2 hours open before drinking- enjoy


#217

I blame you lot. I’d avoided this forum for months, aiming to remain solvent. Within 5 minutes of logging in last November, I had a case of the Musar Trio collection in my basket ('99, '08 & '12)

In a fit of excitement when it arrived, I invited some friends around for what I grandly called a vertical tasting.

With alarming speed this event has now approaches on Saturday and I realise that I am ill prepared.

Anyone got any ideas as to the best format for doing this? There’s 6 of us and, selfishly, I plan to open one bottle of each of the trio and keep the rest for Mrs Bags and I at a later date. I will have to feed the thirsty swine as well I guess, in addition to letting them swill my loot. Important questions:

  • What order should I serve the wine in - youngest first, oldest first or chronological mix up?
  • Any menu ideas?
  • I was assuming wine with the food?
    -Decanting - I’ve asked this question before & I seem to remember the consensus was maybe just a little air half an hour or so before, especially for the older bottle. Agreed?
  • I’m afeared that the 2012is a little young for a Musar. I do have a case of 2010 tucked, should. substitute or leave the '12 in for a nice contrast?

The help of the many Musar aficionados that I know are in this Community would be much appreciated!!


#218

Concerning the decanting, I would give them some time and allow for at least two hours. The wine has been in the bottle for a long time after all…


#219

There is no consensus on decanting. I’ve drunk it freshly opened and it was very drinkable (but concentrated) I’d advise a minimum of 2 hours. Musar themselves might tell you to decant the night before!

Food wise. If you have The Palomar or an Ottolengi cookbook that would be a fine match.

You can drink the 2012 now. Why not the 2010 too, then you have a nice tasting!

I’d do them oldest first.

If you go on the Musar website there is a PDF doc for every vintage of most of the wines. It isn’t excessive and is interesting in my opinion, well worth printing. The 2010 was a challenging year in particular. You could either memorise them and wow your guests or just pass them around.


#220

Good advice- thanks…I’ll have a look on the Musar website…not sure I’ll get sign off on the 4th bottle, but like your style


#221

I would suggest decanting for a while based on experience…unless you want to give them a whiff of what it’s like straight from the bottle…


#222

If you are having Lebanese food, white Musar is a good match IMHO.
But people wanting to drink red Musar choosing Lebanese food seems a mistake to me.
Lebanese food does the wine no favours at all.
Nor have the food and wine emerged together as part of a culinary tradition so far as I can see.
If someone said they were going to serve Lebanese food with properly mature Bordeaux, people would counsel against.
Every reason for that also applies to red Musar I think. Especially when mature, it’s complex and some of the aromas are finely nuanced.
Why not let the wine shine and treat it like a mature Bordeaux with appropriate food?
Incidentally, it genuinely puzzles me that more people don’t hold this view, especially real Musar enthusiasts. I’d have thought they of all people would favour more wine friendly food as they would for Burgundy and Bordeaux, for at its best mature Musar is a magnificent wine.
Indeed, I’m surprised too that it tends to be served more often in verticals rather than alongside other fine wines for comparison at wine dinners, or with other Lebanese wines that aren’t at anything like the same standard.
If it were made in France or Italy, nobody would do this. Debate :slight_smile:


#223

Surely that depends on the Lebanese food being served.

Okay, maybe not with mloukhieh or tawouk, but would you rule it out with kibbeh? Or roast leg of lamb? Plenty of good winter grub up in the mountains that would suit a Musar, I reckon.