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Buying/Selling Members Reserves

Not sure if this has been asked before, or even if it is allowed by the terms and conditions of the society, but is there anyway for members to buy/sell wine that is sitting in members’ reserves?

For example, person A has a case of 6x bottles of Wine XYZ sat in reserves, whilst person B is looking to buy 6x (or fewer) bottles of Wine XYZ. Is there anywhere for person B to post a wanted notice (perhaps in a dedicated Wanted wines thread?), or a way for person A to advertise for sale?

Apologies if this is not the done thing here, but given the amount of wine people may be sitting on that they may not want I wanted to ask, as I can imagine they would find willing buyers here.

This has been done previously, in my case without success.
I was looking for:
Clos du Caillou CdR “La Reserve” 2016
Mont Redon Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2016
And still am.
I have a big range of wines in Reserves that I might be prepared to swap, from Crozes, Gigondas, Hermitage right up to Burlotto 2016.
If you ARE INTERESTED, your Caillou and/or Redon wines MUST be lying in Society Reserves.
Nothing less will do!! :+1: :dragon:

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This sounds a bit like what Berry Brothers & Rudd do with their BBX platform (and I’m sure there’s loads of others).

I suppose it’s a tricky one to model out as a business, because you’ve got to factor in the whole price-setting/profit thing, plus whether to charge a fee or markup to provide the platform, and the whole thing about it being hard enough to track what members have in reserves as it is without them doing swapsies… knowing what to charge in 2021 for a wine you bought in 1999… etc.

I can see why TWS don’t provide it as a website feature :slight_smile:

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I can see the point, but there is lots of transparency in the wine market these days, plus a free market would allow members a wider choice

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The main problem is philosophical - not their ethos or aim.

The second is technical - the lesson of the new site launch is sobering in that respect.

Thirdly economic - TWS will seek to cap prices to discourage flipping but by doing so will only encourage some to take advantage of price caps to buy and flip ex-platform.

I think the third would be overlooked as non-scaleable and so not a real problem but hurdles 1) and 2) are significant.

I think rather than a secondary market the site/society should allow members to send their reserves ‘back to stock’ at the price they paid and then the society can decide at what price to resell (with the original sale price + 5% as the floor)

The hassle of re-valuation could be absorbed by the profit accruing to the society.

TWS would continue to charge the seller for reserves storage so there is effectively no change for TWS.

This could be limited to reserves within the society promise drinking window and to a certain level of stock (say 10% pa) to avoid abuse.

A separate section of the site would help TWS avoid complaints that they were flooding the market with ‘old’ stock.

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Been asked before and I believe the answer was it goes against the philosophy:

I can see the value in members occasionally wanting to sell something they decided they don’t want to other members but as soon as you have an equivalent of BBX you’ll have people buying purely to sell for profit which I’d be every against.

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Thanks for all the responses and I agree with all the concerns raised.

Rather than a full blown BBX style arrangement, I was thinking more along the lines of a place for members to post their wants for people to contact them - for example there are some anniversary/birth year vintages that I want to get some wines from, but have missed the EP windows for.

Having said that, the logistics would be a nightmare to manage, even if it were just a thread here for people to update, so probably best to bury the idea now - will try and curb my enthusiasm and imagination in future.

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Don’t do that!

Activating both is the original purpose of the substance.

That would lead us into the vicious cycle of drinking wine to activate these experiences and then talking about it as a way of bringing us down from the high.

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I’ve thought about this often.
I think if TWS did allow this then some members may start buying to speculate and I don’t think this is the ethos of TWS.
While I would definitely use it, as I have a cellar full of Rhone wine that I would rather sell now than drink, I don’t see it becoming a feature.

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I reckon if you stick some details on the Rhone Rangers thread there will be a few people willing & able to help you out with that particular issue.

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I was just wondering about the ability to sell wine. My problem is being in Europe. Although I tried to get my reserves out before the Brexit cut-off, a couple of key problems emerged. The key one is that the deliveries can be delayed by weeks and there is no way of knowing in what conditions the wines are being stored in. Of course the other problem is the escalation of fees. Previously I was able to ship 60 bottles for £100. At the first whiff of Brexit, the delivery companies charged £350 for the same volume. In addition customs are due at 19% of the value, and although DHL automatically pay the customs on my behalf, they charge a 10% fee of the total value of goods for this service.

Let’s say TWS did allow me to sell reserves, my other concern is if any of the bottles are corked/no good, would the buyer expect compensation? It’s quite the minefield!

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Argh, what a nightmare!

Assuming you’re resigned to (reluctantly) selling it, is it worth putting in an email to Lay & Wheeler or Berry Bros and seeing if it might be worth the rigmarole of transferring your wine there and selling via their platforms?

Interesting point re: spoiled wine… if I’d bought from a channel other than primary/retail I don’t know I’d have even considered chasing recompense! But maybe there’s some back-channel process where you’re dealing with wine transferred in-bond…

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check out this outfit I have used them in the past quite successfully, as a seller, - easy to transact with and generally helpful.

The Wine Owners team
The Vineyard, 13-19 Vine Hill,
London, EC1R 5DW
Tel: +44 (0)20 7278 4377
www.wineowners.com

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  1. Depends on the T&C of the platform whence the transaction was carried out.

  2. Which will no doubt be ‘no guarantees - buyer beware’ - could be vinegar or the elixir of life- who knows until the cork is pulled.

  3. Litigation will be near impossible for small numbers, the ‘small claims court’ procedure USED to be applicable in mainland 'Yurp under the European Court (I sued an Italian client last year) - however brexit has shafted that, with no obvious replacement legal device in place.

  4. All the above are irrelevant - because TWS T&C prohibit selling personal stock for profit, speculation or fluffy pillows. Enjoy your wine.

Happy to be corrected here, but I think there’s some (intentional?) ambiguity in the terms & conditions, in that we are prohibited from buying with the intention of selling on, which implies that the Powers That Be will come down hard on the flippers in particular, but not so much on the member who has discovered - 20 years down the line - that they bought way too much claret and wouldn’t mind shifting some of it.

Not that it affects me, but that’s my understanding anyway.

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For clarity the sale through Wineowners was from non TWS reserves

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You might try
https://wine-pages.com/community/index.php?forums/vinxchange.9/
The UK wine forum wine exchange platform. Pier to pier. Very often Wines which are in TWS and can be transferred to other accounts or indeed deliver free as that’s in your terms.
Im sure someone there will walk you through it if you ask.

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Don’t you mean for clarety?

Relevant also to the BBX thread elsewhere I received an email from L&W saying no private transfers in until 4th Jan '22; coupled with relatively long booking in times at L&W selling on their platform will require some medium term planning…

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Many thanks for all the informative replies.
Another solution a friend in the UK has suggested, is to drive over, collect my wines and spend enough time in the UK to drink a fair volume of it :slight_smile: before returning with the rest to the continent.
A relative has just offered to let me use their house whilst away on holiday…
so I could release 90 bottles…drink at least one bottle per night over a 10 night stay (possibility to drink more if a few friends visit), leave behind some wine as a thank-you for my hosts. This could be a fun solution, and looking at the costs, even driving myself over and paying customs on my return is still cheaper than DHL!!

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Depending how much you have to sell, and how much effort you want to put in, have you looked at auctioning it? I’ve bought a few lots on Bidforwine, of wine stored in TWS Reserves, and had them transferred to my reserves, without charge from TWS.

As others have said, buying with the intent to sell is frowned upon, but where members no longer want or need their wines (or perhaps in some cases are no longer with us), it seems TWS is relaxed about them being sold on. Although I can understand why it doesn’t want to get involved in the transaction itself, for all the reasons mentioned in this and the other thread on this topic.

Jim

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