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Burgundy advice

Look forward very much to watching the video. I don’t have that much experience but tend to agree with Guido about most things (apart from the S Rhone being the best source for aged reds!)
For me Burgundy (and indeed Pinot in general) is very rarely better the next day, unlike many other reds. Drinking windows also often extremely narrow and maddeningly difficult to pin down!

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The reason why I say this: You can get CNDP with more than five year’s storage on it for less than the en-primeur release price…

E.g. 2014 Clos des Papes at £420 for 12 ib, vs £225 for six in TWS’s 2014 Rhone e.p. offer.

To be clear, I’m not particularly recommending 2014 Clos des P (though it’s 4.5 stars from JLL) as I’ve never had it. I’m just using it as an example. Also, it’s not seen as a great vintage - though a recent 2014 CNDP from Versino impressed me, and when I said this to the man himself, he said 2014 was under-rated.

But my main point is this: You’re getting that wine for less than the e.p. price, and you’re getting five years’ storage worth at least £50 into the bargain.

I’d equate Clos des Papes’ place in CNDP to a very good 1er Cru in Burgundy - it’s not Rayas (the DRC of CNDP, I’d say). But it’s highly regarded. JLL calls it a “gold standard” estate.

You won’t, I think, tend to find 1er Cru Burgundy from 2014 (where it’s also a middling vintage, I gather) at below the e.p. price.

I also think you’ll find this across other CNDP - Janasse, but also lesser CNDPs.

I think this is even more pronounced with CNDPs from, say, 2006. Deduct the value of the professional storage and you’re getting the wine very inxpensively as prices on it have gone nowhere.

Now, you can of course argue that CNDPs are overpriced (for their enjoyability, for their finesse vs. Burgundy, or vs. very good Gigondas, Cairanne and Languedoc). Or that they’re over-priced on release in the wake of Parker’s influence. But still… I think you can find, say, very good 2009 and older CNDP at very good prices…


TBH I’ve not kept any sort of record. My initial reaction was that they tended to be younger wines that on initial tasting seemed too thin and tannic. However, the last wine I can definitely remember improving overnight was a Beaune 1er Cru Clos des Coucheraux 2008. I bought a case at the beginning of June and tried a bottle beginning of July.

I would have thought a 2008 was through that closed period by now? Anyway it was a little underwhelming, but the next day a lot better. [Mind you I was in a suspicious frame of mind. I’d never heard of the seller - Iconic Wines - before and my local decent wine shop also suddenly had the same wine available.]

I don’t know… Beyond my level of knowledge.

Toby, in his video, said I think that he’d just opened a De Montille 2008. And De Montille are known for being long-lived. But I’d have thought it quite possible, or even likely, that a Beaune 1er from 2008 needed more time. And your description sounds quite closed…

Interesting question for me. I’m soon to take out of storage a mixed case of very low-level 2008 Burgs (e.g basic Chorey) - wish me luck!!

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Ah - hang on. Guessing… this is a Jadot, right?

The wine that got me into wine, 30 years ago, was an aged PN from NSG. I can remember smelling it and thinking how on earth does a liquid smell of so many lovely things all at once.

I’ve never had a bottle like it since. I still search, ever in hope.


Indeed Jadot.

These days I try to avoid the big Burgundy houses, but this looked a good buy.

Having abandoned our July holiday above Nuits St Georges we’ve taken the plunge and booked a fortnight in September. So I’ll be able to buy en direct again.

Is it the Tollot Chorey? Opened a bottle of the 2017 the other day. Delicious.


That’s a pretty good definition of Burgundy!

If you added “and now I’m much poorer than I used to be” to the sentence you’d encapsulate burgundy perfectly. :rofl:


The Chorey will be a Tollot, yes. May have been better in its youth.

Back to Jadot, this link below may be of interest - bear in mind it is from 2018, but might give an interesting perspective on Jadot Beaune 1ers - which were real bargains until prices rose over the last few years.

Note to all: as a generalisation the people here like old, old Burgundy and keep it way beyond TWS drink windows, at their own risk… Ageing whites has in the recent past been particularly risky - though very old Jadot whites can be spectacular…

But coming back to Jadot Beaune 1ers, see: https://www.wine-pages.com/community/threads/zambuni-jadotfest-2018.7165/

Note the first poster was on one table, other people were on other tables with different wines. Hope an interesting read!

PS: the Ursules is I’d guess the most long-lived of the Jadot 1ers… but that’s a guess.

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and to your point, I have tried Clos des P 2014 from the TWS list last year, it was gorgeous , very burgundian/barolian , silken tannins - though with a bit of alcoholic heat felt in the finish that some people may dislike/find too obvious.


Great post and I pretty much second all of your points. Personally, I would recommend Barthod’s wines at all levels, but especially her Villages Chambolle as a ‘way in’. Food is an absolute must: toast and pate is also great, as are bread and milder softer cheeses.

The only major point I feel needs adding is that Burgundy is a bit like getting into bands or composers - you will eventually find the producers who ‘speak to you’ and you’ll enjoy their ‘lesser’ wines far more than you might, ahem, a U2 album. A related point is that critics scores should be largely ignored, except as a hierarchy within a producers own wines (by the same taster in the same session) - think about music journalists’ reviews of albums and how much they can deviate from our own evaluations!

Oh, and long decants can work wonders.


I was surprised how the 2008 Rugiens came round. Like you I was expecting this to be closed for much longer.


Btw, what was the other wine - it was a little hard to hear. Montille was one and the other… couldn’t quite hear.

Incidentally, there is I think another point worth making here. Much of my knowledge comes from reading and participating in forums, and in wine circles. Some is from tasting, but much is secondhand, really - though still useful.

But I think it’s actually very difficult to build up proper knowledge of Burgundy through tasting, because you’d need to taste an awful lot of Burgundy. Hard to do unless you’re a professional - like you, or the Great and Good whom you mention.

I do have a three friends who have built up real knowledge of Burgundy (one you know of, and you’ll probably recognise their influence in my posts above!). But they basically only drink Burgundy - they drink almost nothing else. And by nature they are very autodidactic people (each could easily have been an academic), for whom wine is a major part of their spare time.

Such people are really worth getting to know if you stumble across them… I sometimes wonder why I bother reading about wine… I’ve been interested in it long enough, and so know enough enthusiasts, that I’d be better off just asking more knowledgeable people and buying what they say!

But I make a broader point. There are actually very few people with the opportunity to taste as you and Marcel (and the other buyers) do, and it’s wonderful that your knowledge benefits us - and that’s another reason why it’s such a great interview. There must be a handful of people in the UK with your level of knowledge - and the opportunity to share it backed by a mutual vs., a for-profit retailer.


The other red was Denis Mortet Gevrey-Chambertin Premier Crus Lavaux St Jacques 2000.

I still think reading is a great start.
Jasper’s Morris Inside Burgundy is a good basis although he is writing a new edition as things move quickly.
Clive Coates is sound but his books are a bit out of date now.
Revues like Burghound are good. Neal Martin covers Burgundy well.

I agree tasting, ideally with someone with knowledge is the best way. I lived in London when younger and attended many tastings with people who knew about Burgundy. Thats how I started off.


I loved that people told you not to become a buyer as it would never happen. Bravo!
I shall stop taking up your time!

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Agree… this was excellent…

Looks like a range of Burgundies with some bottle age have recently appeared - many limited to 3 per member which is sensible:



One day I’ll buy a bottle at that price, just to see if i like it.

In fact I think I may have promised myself I’ll do just that. Soon.


I wouldn’t recommend it. The two possible outcomes are penury (my fate) or disappointment :wink:


I saw that earlier today and have just gone and spent next years red burgundy budget on a mixed case :weary:. I hear it was too hot in burgundy in 2019 any way :wink::grin:

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