An English red on the list

with my haven’t really got a clue what I’m talking about hat on, I don’t think the terms are exclusive but relate to different aspects. Isn’t a mutation a spontaneous genetic change in a species but insufficiently so to render it a different species, but a clone is an asexual copy of a distinct genetic type; ie a cutting of a particular specimen and propagated vegetatively thereafter ?

I think I’ll stop now… when in a hole and all that

It gets complicated, but a mutation is a change in a gene or chromosomes that can be passed on through reproduction, but it is a rare event.
Cloning in plants can be achieved by budding onto rootstock for instance.
You can also get changes caused by virus in plants. Plants develop variegation as a result of viral infection, genetic mutation, or nutrient deficiency, with for instance Hostas virtually all variegation is caused by virus, in all variegated plants that have this type they will retain the variegation as long as the virus is present, weakening of the virus will show itself as the dominant original green returning, but that is only one reason for the change some variegation is also caused by mutation, that would be permanent as it involves a gene or chromosome changing, there are virtually no original species as far as I I know, with variegation.
I could go on but I see the eyelids drooping and the yawning starting, but it does get quite involved.


There are also epigenetic mutations, which can be hereditable but do not affect the organism’s DNA.

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Quite frankly the “average person in the street” won’t give a **** as to whether their PN is a clone, mutation or anything else. It is only some of us “geeks” that are.

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Anyway, interest piqued by this thread, we had a Winbirri 2018 Pinot Noir yesterday evening.

Does anyone know anything about how it is made? I noticed a rather high-toned sort of fruitiness on opening, though it rapidly blew off. But as the tannins were very soft, and the fruitiness remained rather forward, I wondered if it may have had a bit of carbonic (semi-carbonic?) maceration? If so, it was nicely judged. I’ve had a wine, years ago, that tried this and got it wrong, and was horrible. This was very nice.

Actually I don’t give a **** either other than I happen to know a bit about it all, what is in the bottle is what counts the rest is a side interest that I ingested many moons ago at agricultural college when doing the necessary courses for my horticultural business, most of which I have forgotten now anyway.

I am as much in the dark as you, the vineyard is not that far from me but I have only drunk one bottle of the PN and that was the '17, that one was a bit lean, after all the vineyard is still at the limits of what would be called PN country.
I think we still have to accept that vintages in this country are not going to be as reliable for that type of grape as elsewhere, having said that it was thought impossible to make PN here not that many years ago.
The only other Norfolk PN I have drunk is from Flint Vineyard at Earsham, that was better, but then it was not PN it was Precoce, I wish I hadn’t said that!

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Blockquote The only other Norfolk PN I have drunk is from Flint Vineyard at Earsham, that was better, but then it was not PN it was Precoce

and I think that’s where all this side chat started!

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According to a TWS tweet today this wine ‘rivals the best of Burgundy.’

And cheaper than any red Burgundy on the list at the moment.


good spot, we shall try and see

UPDATE… this tweet has in the meantime been deleted and a new one posted without the hyperbole.


"A delightful pinot noir that rivals the best of Burgundy."
Taken at its word, this is as good as DRC or at least in the same ballpark!!
That is the comparison that is implied.
Or is it marketing speak, the desire to shift bottles of red English wine.
This sort of wording drives me crazy, as in the end it will only put wine lovers off.
I would be shocked to my boots if it was as good as a Pataille pinot noir.
This description is a disgrace to the Society and should be taken down immediately.
I will only believe it if our Burgundy buyer endorses the comparison as valid. :dragon:


I will only believe it when I have tasted it. Till then the description does not bother me at all, maybe too used to hyperbole.

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Yes, one of my first thoughts on reading that was “in whose opinion?” It’s a very strong claim to make and doesn’t carry much credibility.

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The grapes are grown at Clayhill vineyard near Maldon Essex. Not very far from Danbury ridge who’s Pinot and Chardonnay are getting good write ups from Neal Martin et al. So I’ve put one on my wish list.
Some good things must come from Essex apart from yours truly.


Being generous to the copy writers, maybe this should be…

“rivals the best of Burgundy around the £20 price” ?

Still a bold claim, but to be fair, comparing it to something costing £20 in Burgundy narrows the competition a little…

Of the 76 red burgundies listed at TWS, the cheapest is currently £24.


Thank you: shall we start a new topic on WS hyperbole?

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Hi all, we’re very sorry about this copy error! And we’re very sorry if this has offended anyone. Thank you all as usual for being so quick and efficient to flag this to us - TWS’ Social Media posts have now been amended to remove this line!


*chortle *

I see I am going to have to buy a bottle of this potation. More generally, when we have discussed this topic before, I seem to remember a comparison with a decent Bourgogne Rouge came up as an acceptable way to describe English PN. Not at all a put-down - the better PNs can outclass ornery village wines, and occasionally premier cru ones.

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Totally agree - it’s a ridiculous claim. There’s English PN which is very nice for what it is and I’m proud that this country grows and vinifies the stuff and the results are often eminently quaffable… but rivals the best of Burgundy is just extracting the urine. Reminds me of those mail shots about the various Bin Series offerings lately…


What I will say in English PN’s favour is that unlike many other PNs from around the world, the balance is “right”. It seems to be hard to get PN wines balanced just right. Many NZ and USA ones fail this test, however nice they may be otherwise. Most French ones outside Burgundy likewise.

In terms of balance, this seems to come more easily the nearer the cool-growing limits you are. Alsace and Germany have an easier time of it too.

Not that balance is the only thing by a long stretch, but hefty tannins for example can ruin an otherwise delicious offering. All IMHO of course.